CYBER DEBATE WITH A PRINCE HALL MASON
In November 2010, a member of Prince Hall contacted me and a cyber-debate began. Here's an excerpt of our conversation:
CARLTON CALHOUN: Since this is supposed to be for "the upliftment and advancement of Afrikans", with all of this information you are divulging, how is this going to perpetuate the uplifting of "Afrikans" when it is all out??Since this is supposed to be for "the upliftment and advancement of Afrikans", with all of this information you are divulging, how is this going to perpetuate the uplifting of "Afrikans" when it is all out??
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: It uplifts "Afrikanz" by identifying one of the several century-plus allegiance to organizationz that are not Afrikan-based, as well as for the collective advancement of the global Diaspora. I don't know about you but I know it's better to know the rooted foundation of an organization before joining. As author, George G.M. James stated, "greek mythology is stolen Afrikan history." So these fraternities and sororities along with the naacp, uncf, urban league, etc, should all be re-examined to determine if they're really for us. And what I've found showz they are not.
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: Let me give you my vantage point, not so much to debate, but just for dialogue. You seem to be an intelligent individual, but my dilemma is this. The Steve Cokely's and others who wish for us (Frat members, Masons, etc) to "divulge" information and "denounce" our memberships never reveal a plan for true uplift. If every Mason, frat/sorority member, UNCF, etc were to denounce all of our memberships, our lot in life would be no more advanced than it is now. Prior to joining each organization I belong to, I researched them thoroughly. Yes, "greek" information is stolen from the birthplace of civilization (which, the term Africa is not ours either!), but during the times when these organizations were formed (at least the frats/sororities), they would not have allowed a Kemetian organization to exist on predominantly white campuses, so there is a method to the madness.
You may say, "well, what's the excuse now?". There is none, but the blood, sweat and tears that was shed so that these organizations could participate in the uplift of our race is linked to who we were, are, and will be, just as most of us have names that are of european descent. So there is history in who these organizations are. Yes, they are for us! Contrary to what most think, there is no "secret" information shared in the rituals of these organizations. There are simply symbols veiled in allegory to illustrate simple lessons that we should be practicing in our lives anyway. It just makes it more interesting to "hide" them in symbols.
Just like playing "hide and seek". The game would be no fun if everyone were already visible. For years people said that the Masons and Illuminati were linked together. I've been a Mason for almost 20 years; I have all the degrees that one can attain. I've never had an "advantage" in my life because I'm a Mason. Never will.
Again, there are just lessons that we emphasize through the use of symbols. Until all of the anti-proponents suggest a TRUE solution for where we are as a people, each of the organizations you "expose" provide more opportunity for us that any to this date. Are there bad people in these organizations? Of course. Such is life.
This is true of churches, synagogues, etc. Until man no longer exists, we will have problems. Hell, we (moors, Afrikans, whatever you want to call us) can't come together long enough to mobilize and create solutions.
The TRUE ASSIATIC (what most call Asiatic) Black Man recognizes who
he is, regardless of what he belongs to. He is not defined by his
organizations; he defines them.
I've been following your site since it's inception. I applaud you for your longevity and your mission. Keep it moving. We need more brothers/sisters
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: If I may, I'd like to respond... True, there hasn't really been an official agenda/solution proposed, and although that is needed, I feel it is just one aspect. If you're familiar with Chancellor Williams book, The Destruction of Black Civilization, he addresses the historical timeline of how we became a Diaspora, laying out in chronological detail the invasionz our Ancestorz encountered in the Nile Valley (earlier known as Wo'se, Nowe, or Alkebulan — yes, I know 'Afrika' isn't an original term).
Whether hedz wanna believe it or not, there's a reason we have remained disunited and the foundation of this is exactly what Williams outlined, and this is the strategic root of our delayed liberation. I find it impossible to believe different when I find these "black" organizationz have rooted alliances as well as ideologies with the very oppressorz of our people.
I've heard and even overstand that back in the early 1900s, it wasn't wise to have an organization with an obvious Afrikan name. I get that, but it goes beyond that when we look historically to current day and nothing has been done to address this. It makes me even wonder if that is really a modern-day excuse just like the naacp's refusal to discontinue using the word "colored" people...
Were the founderz really that Afrikan-centered? Or did they just suffer from the same self-hatred global white supremacy conveyed physically and subliminally. I mean, from my studies, many "blacks" didn't want to be referred to as that, nor even seen eating watermelon while preferring skin bleaching creamz, conking their hair and let's not forget this is when the brown paperbag test evolved. Yes, we were suffering and committing black-on-black segregation back then, so I'm not so sure they were of the mindset of Garvey (or Pan-Afrikanists) during that time even though he effectively reached millionz during his reign. I mean, where were the outspoken black masonz and greeks during his movement? I have found no evidence to support this. This is also what moved me to write Part 3 of my Boule' series, Dyin' Wit Secrets.
You mentioned the blood, sweat, and tearz shed by these organizationz. Although they endured inhumane acts, it measures nothing near to what our Ancestorz experienced during the numerous invasionz where hedz were maimed, tortured, and killed (as I'm sure you know). What's deep is the people you speak of endured this abuse trying to assimilate with caucasianz and they STILL did what they did. After all the skin bleaching, hair conking, greek, religious, and masonic adoptionz, they're STILL not fully accepted as equal! When will we get that our liberation will continue to be delayed as long as we keep trying to be accepted by them?! This is mentacide (mental suicide, as phrased by Dr. Bobby Wright)!
So I strongly disagree, these organizationz are NOT for us! And I would think after 100 yearz along with their obvious decision to remain loyal to the tenants of our oppressor, we would know better. But obviously we haven't learned that lesson yet, hence the reason for my writingz.
Regarding Masonry, if I may ask, what type of Mason are you (Scottish, York, Prince Hall) and what degree. You said you have "all the degreez one can attain", does that mean you are a 33rd? I can't really give you a thorough response, if you'd like me to reply, unless I knew because I do not want to assume. In general, my findingz show the 2 are linked and have been revealed to me by a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Mason.
I assure you, I'm all about solutionz, but in order to even fathom the beginning of such a discussion, we must be made aware of the culprits behind the delay of said discussion. That in itself seemz to be the most challenging task to date, 'cause we still don't believe we have enemies...
Lastly, I believe one is defined by the organizationz, or rather, company he keeps. As mentioned in Part 3 of my series on the Boule', there was a reason why WEB DuBois and Carter G. Woodson, two men who became eventual ex-memberz of the Boule', to speak of but cleverly not mention, the names of those culprits behind global white supremacy. For their secrecy, even as ex-memberz, it has continued to wild goose chase in acknowledging the true identify our enemy.
You mentioned as a Mason, you've never had an advantage because of it and you followed that by sayin' until anti-hedz propse a solution for us, we're just providing opportunity for organizationz like yourz. Lemme ask you this, if you are part of a group who claimz elitizm, yet you claim to have reaped no benefits from bein' a member of said group, why do you continue to be a member?! Additionally, with this elitizm and, dare I say, prestigiousness, why haven't your organization even offered a solution?!!? I mean, isn't that what your supposed to represent — greatness? advancement??
Btw, appreciate your complimentary remarks. It is my hope to continue to push the envelope...
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: This is an example of what vie said for years — knowledge is not power. All of the information that you have, though skewed (in my humble opinion, in many aspects), is doing what for us? I don't say that to be disrespectful, for I respect your base, but again, how is it moving us forward?
You and others who are quick to quote the likes of Bro. Steve Cokely — I remember when he used to do the seminars at the AUC in Atlanta. A good friend of mine was his sidekick/mentee. He used to ask me to give him copies of my rituals. I denied. Some years later I asked him if he was still touring with Cokely - his response, "man, I aint rolling with that crook!" So, again, what's the motivation? Where are the proposed solutions?
To answer your question, I'm PHA, and 32nd, KT, Shriner, etc. Your source, even if a 33rd, may not be credible. Well, if he says the two are linked, then I know he isn't. Because an Eddie Long is accused of homosexual acts, does that make the act tie into being a bishop? I would hope not But, that matters not. With your gifts, hopefully a proposed solution is in the works.
Though we agree to disagree, I will continue to support your endeavors and continue to disprove your perceptions of our organizations through my works. I know who I am, from whence I come and where I'm going. I love my people, but more importantly I love myself.
Continue to push the envelope, but please, don't be like those you quote. Instead of judging those who, in their struggles tried to uplift us, are accused of ulterior motives, propose a solution, not just an answer. Being that you quote mathematics, you will know he difference ;-)
BTW 9 is not an evil Masonic number.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Yeah, you're right, we are gonna have to agree to disagree... First, you shouldn't be so quick to generalize. Although Cokely's work, in my opinion, is phenomenal, he does carry the rep of being hard to befriend. So, despite whatever your friend spoke of him being a crook, that has nothing to do with the info he researched and brought to our people as far as I'm concerned. Cokely's not perfect and I believe he has felt the repercussionz of his relationships as we all will and do. True, he isn't known to have many fruitful ones, but that does not discredit his research. For me, I don't have to like the man, that's not my interest. But I do love his research and information. Besides, is everyone you quote a saint??
If you cannot see how it moves us forward from my last response, then that's what it'll have to be. I was pretty clear about it, and it is your choice to accept or not. So being that you're Prince Hall, I find it typical and almost ego-driven to say a Scottish Rite mason, of which predates Prince Hall some 300 yearz, as not credible. But I'm not gonna go there, you can think PHM is above or outranks Scottish and York if you wish, I know what I know... Besides, if all the memberz of S&B who are also Masonz don't connect the dots for you, that's on you...
I welcome your plight to disprove my findingz, you are entitled, just as I am to continue exposing their alliances with global white supremacy. And let's just say, if it isn't that, they sure aren't for the unification of Afrikan people! You ask of what solutionz I have, I return the same question... what actually have these organizationz you are a part of assisted in the advancement of our people? You said yourself earlier, "I have all the degrees that one can attain. I've never had an "advantage" in my life because I'm a Mason. Never will." So has/can PHM uplift and unite us?!!? If not, what's the reason for being?? (Also, if 32 degreez are all a PHM can attain as you said, what about that extra degree Scottish has?)
Bein' that PHM was created by white masonz, I see it as no different than a black version of santa claus; oh he may have black skin, but his root/origin is of caucasian influence.
Lastly, I assure you, as said, I'm not pressed about living identical lives to those I quote, to do that would not be living my own. So there's no need to even think I would be like everyone I quote, as I'm sure you, yourself are not.
And I as well as otherz will continue to do the research and reveal, you can all that judgement if you choose. Until these organizationz can prove they are for the advancement of Afrikan people, they deserve to be given attention. For me, there are too many around today that have been here for centuries, yet we are STILL in the same if not worse situation. We are in need of a house cleaning, so all these organizationz should be closely analyzed, mainly to find out why they have NOT delivered (but I know why, but for those who think they are not in allegiance to global white supremacy, they should be entitled an answer)...
Oh, what religion do you practice, if any? Just curious.
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: You prove that one on the outside, no matter how much research they do, will never know what goes on on the inside. "Scottish Rite" freemasonry did not exist 300 years before Prince Hall. And since we are on the topic, I am the FIRST to say that PH Freemasonry is not the end all be all of Freemasonry. As a matter of fact, it is not my first home, nor was it the first lodge for Black Masons. Prince Hall wasn't even the first Black Man initiated in America. My first home WAS a "Scottish Rite" order, so I am WELL-VERSED in the lore, history and rites of Freemasonry, but that's another discussion.
So, let's get to the meet. What have these organizations done for the unification of our race. I could go on and on about what it is we do. That's not important. Here is what I know and what I DON'T like about our organizations (a point we will agree on):
We allow "colors" to divide us. My personal stance is that we are all Black (or whatever you want to call us) before we are in our Frats/Sororities. In fact, I used to do joint-pledges with other organizations in an effort to get back to the unity. We all have
common purposes; we just go about them in different ways
With that being said, there are TONS of things that the organizations do for us that most "anti-organizations" have YET to match! Do you know how many millions of dollars we give to education so that our brothers and sisters can go to school? Now, you may be against the traditional form of education. In some aspects, I am, but at least its an opportunity for advancement in a system that is built on credentials. Of all of the people you quote, how many have done the same?
I know how many brothers/sisters have had the door opened so that they can participate in this present system of Capitalism because of their association with these organizations. How many of the people you quote have done the same for us.
I know how many businesses we've been able to start in our own community because of our association with one another. How many businesses have your sources helped fund for Blacks in America? I've spoken to TRUE Africans who are members of our organizations. I know their plight and their concern.
You see, I believe we want the same thing, but we, too, are going about it in different ways. You seek to tear down organizations that, whether you believe it or not, are seeking to uplift us. Yes, many fall short, and again, contrary to what you think, it is not because of some hidden allegiance.
You are basing your information on third-party research. I'm on the inside looking out. We don't answer to "higher parties", contrary to what many think. Freemasonry is not even connected to a higher body beyond the state level. LOL! But, to end this discussion, it's like any other family.
No one on the outside of my family can dictate what I do within, just as I can't do to them. A family is free to operate as it sees fit.
I wish you success in your unification of our people. Like I said, we want the same thing; we just have different tools. At the end of the day, even if every organization burns it's documents, disassembles its body and everyone goes their separate ways, where will we be? The answer — no further than we are now!
You cannot stop a war by protesting it. The universe doesn't work like that. I enjoy our dialogue. It's stimulating. Continue your quest, for success is found not in the destination, but in the journey?
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Your mention of masonz being able to provide education, jobz, etc and ask whether the acts of your "organization" has been able to match the efforts of "individualz" I quote. The real question is how are individualz able to come together as a group to do these thingz WITHOUT infiltration and even annihilation of its leaderz and memberz. Need we recall the efforts of the
Black Panther Party and MOVE who simply tried supplying free breakfast programz for the youth? Or how about the Nation of Islam? We see how they've been torn down to insignificance. What happened to these blatant "pro-Afrikan" organizationz? They were targeted by the u.s. government, cia, etc.
To date, I have yet to find any intelligence or spying performed on PHM, and that's not to say there hasn't been any, it's just that PHM obviously doesn't pose a threat to global white supremacy. So true, enough of those I quote haven't matched what PHM as done, but that's not to say there hasn't been an ongoing attempt! I can name several pro-Afrikan organizationz that exist
today that have trouble reaching a massive level because of infiltration of the enemy and a collective ignorance shared by our people that we are even at war.
I'm sure if PHM were to become Pan-Afrikan, you'd see the exact same inquisitionz suddenly happen...
And you're right, going to their schoolz, to me, isn't a plus (although I share the belief there are thingz we need to attain just in order to survive in this world). Of these businesses you speak of, however, they still fall well short of the need for us to compete on a national/global scale.
That's not to knock what they've done to this point, in fact, it's not even part of my argument, for me, it's about having something BY Afrikanz, FOR Afrikanz.
And by the tenants of PHM being based on white caucasian masonry, it is no different than the Boule' upholding the value and virtues of Skull&Bones...
btw, some resources say Scottish Rite started in the mid 1400s, with its predecessor being circa 1754 or 1762.
PS. I don't practice nor believe in any religion...
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: For the record, when I say organizations, I mean both Masonic and Fraternal. At any rate, your charges are losing some bite. Our nation is based on credentials. If one is not in business for himself, he must get a job. While I'm an entrepreneur, I recognize that those who aren't must be gainfully employed. To be so, one must have credentials for the most part. These credentials are granted by institutions. Sadly, because we don't have any, we must attend "theirs", and they cost. Greatly!
You mention the Black Panthers. Interesting. My father was a Panther. They were started, in part, by Huey Newton, who was a member of one of the organizations you bash. You mention NOI. They are, in some cases and in some opinions, responsible for their own demise. So, if an organization isn't under the federal radar, they are they enemy?? That's funny!
Also, PHM is based on Freemasonry, not Caucasian freemasonry. There is a difference. Again, your research in his arena is lacking. You are sharp. I give you that. But there are some areas that we both need to tighten up on. In your for us by us argument, until WE get certain resources, this wont happen. As such, to date, the BEST vehicle to achieve this is that which you seek to destroy.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: So what does Huey's membership with one of these organizationz you stated have to do with what I said?? While with the Pantherz and doing work on behalf of the Pantherz, did Huey ever say, "by the way, this is in conjunction with (whatever organization you say he was in)."?? You spoke about my using quotes as though I lived the exact life as them when it seemz you're the one doing it.
Yes, the NOI did partake in their own demise, but they were also on Gay Edgar Hoover's radar, as well as hiring negroes into infiltrating them. This is fact! So yeah, to think any Black or Pan-Afrikan-centered organization wouldn't be on the list of memberz of the GWS' (Global White Supremacy) elite is naivety at its best. Sorry, I do not take that as a joke.
To clarify, to my knowledge, the PHMs have not done anything that would be deemed a threat to GWS, and no, I'm not the official keeper of recordz for them, but I have yet to find any situationz where PHM became a threat. And I never said PHMs is an enemy, what I have been saying is the root of their origin puts into question their allegiance to Diasporic Liberation.
So tell me, since you believe I'm lacking in this area, how PHM isn't rooted in the caucasianz version of masonry when it was they who gave your organization life and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure the affiliation still standz (the PHMs do recognize Scottish and/or York correct?). Enlighten me, brotha, I'm all for gettin' sharper!
And I agree, it is about the gain of resources, as Marcus Garvey said of the (Cecil) Rhodes/(Lord) Rothschilds clan, (in so many wordz) "if our oil, gold, diamondz and other natural resources are good enough for Rhodes, Rothschilds, Rockefeller, it's good enough for us!" To say the best vehicle to achieve this is what I seek to destroy is sad. The best vehicle?? This is merely a vehicle not one member has chosen to drive; the car's just sittin' there on idle... since its inception! The best you say?? That's like hoping the agents hired to infiltrate the NOI to assassinate Malcolm, to come to their senses, or Carter G. Woodson and WEB DuBois to tell us exact names of those they knew were responsible for our plight!
Besides, these organizationz are at least, if not older than 100 yearz old (including frats/sororities, etc). To believe after all this time they're finally gonna do something on the global level it needz to be for us is a pipe dream! I'm convinced no member is willing to give up their table scraps 'ol massa feedz them in exchange for feeding us all!
When are we gonna realize there's a reason (and people/movement) why we don't have these resources you speak of, which, as you know most are taken from the very land we originated from!
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: Did Huey say that his other organization was working for the enemy?? That's a mute point. All I'm saying is he must have saw SOMETHING of value to be a part of it. No, not all PHM Grand Lodges are recognized, nor do they recognize mainstream (caucasian) freemasonry. Also, Scottish and York Rite are NOT organizations in and of themselves. They are concordant bodies, and exist in most "regular" masonic organizations.
Yes, I will say the BEST vehicle because there are NO other predominantly Black organizations with the resources, manpower and missions equivalent to those you seek to destroy. So, just as in any sports contest, the only thing that matters at the end of the day is the scoreboard. You show me ONE organization, outside of the NOI that is even close! While you may not agree or like it, these vehicles are NOT sitting there idle. They may not be gassing up to drive back to Africa, but they are moving! Give me one other who is gassed up and ready to participate in this "Diasporic Liberation", has a clear set of directions to get there and a plan of action once we arrive, and I will be on there myself! But, as with anything, idle chatter doesn't go far!
Yes, all of the resources that drive this world, for the most part, come from our home. Outside of that, I'll revert back to my original point. What is your solution??
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: I don't know what Huey said. Also, how active was he in this group while a Panther? It seemz you have the answerz so enlighten me... And Ok, so not all PHM lodges are recognized, but some are, correct? That's my point...
You can feel they are the best optionz we have while I seriously beg to differ. Just 'cause there may not be one in effect from a Pan-Afrikan perspective does not mean I should walk like the Romanz since I'm in Rome. Again, all this resource and manpower you speak of while we still reside on the bottom level of the socio-economic plane. We still have the highest unemployment, lowest life expectancy, and education, guess your organizationz are due a round of applause for such efficient work!
And I know driving toward Afrika is not on their GPS, as I stated, their allegiance proves this!
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: Huey was VERY active in the organization. The one he was in is irrelevant. He shared membership with 4 African Kings as well. What's your point with PHM lodges that are recognized??
Yes, we are at the bottom level of the socio-economic plane, so back to my original question – WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?? You have yet to propose one. While we are at such low levels in all categories you mentioned, show me ONE of your supported organizations that is putting forth an effort to curb this behavior. All that you want to dismantle are at least working to do so. THAT is my point! We will not reach the top overnight. As I tell people I mentor in their personal situations – give yourself at least the same amount of time to fix the problem as it took to create it!
Thank you for the dialogue. When more of us are willing to discuss instead of argue, maybe we will make headway. Until then, who knows.
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: My point is PHM were started by white masonz. Whether all or a few are recognized today or not, unless you can show me they weren't, from my research, that's how they were started...
I do not have a definitive solution at this time and not ashamed to say it. But I am diligently in search of it! At first, I thought I could find it in several of the groups you support. I didn't wake up one day and say, "I feel like tearing down all the black organizationz". In my earlier dayz, I actually went to some of these organizationz because I thought they were one's working on this solution, but I consistently found of those organizationz who had ties/allegiances and/or originz with GWS sects. I heard pretty much the same story, "we're working on it but it's gonna take time. It's not gonna come overnight," as you mentioned...
When I look at the continuing plight of our future (our youth), I do not see this work the groups you mentioned are supposedly doing. They are simply out of touch. The youth ain't hearin' y'all, mainly because you (they) have not been able to back up their talk. Whilst you boast of the work they (you) do, our youth are falling ever-increasingly to illiteracy, growing lack of education, no skillz, no jobz to use those skillz, no guidance (especially male), and even more tragic, homosexuality or emasculation of the role of Black men. Now we got all these 100-plus old organizationz around, you tellin' me we aren't more out of touch with our youth now then when these organizationz first started??
Besides, of these several "organized" organizationz, it puzzles me as to why there is no unification amongst the different groups, afterall, they claim to be working for the same cause! This is no different than religion; hedz claim to believe in the same god but can't come together because of minor differences, meanwhile the masses remain confused, stuck at a standstill...
What I see with these groups is detour/delay. Any organization that s'posed to be for the advancement of our people collectively that has alliances with the very sect responsible for this delay makes no sense to me at all. I mean, do you really think caucasianz are gonna let us get free? Why do you think all these groups were created around the same time, a generation or two removed from slavery (naacp, frats/sororities, urban league, niagra movement, hbcu's, etc)?!!? I can't and won't speak for everyone else. It may be ok for you, but it is not with me.
I suspect (based on the very low rate of success) these groups are operating on the same agenda probably introduced at its inception. We need an updated agenda! One that focuses on our youth (particularly Afrikan males). But I don't see this happening with said groups because its record just doesn't show it. Now you may rebuttal noting a few service projects and scholarships here and there, but I still don't hear of these "successful" black men pulling their resources together to create endowments, corporationz, trade schoolz that cater specifically to our people. And even though every other race does this, they still most likely won't 'cause they're afraid of the 'reverse racizm' tag, and most importantly don't realize the game of life involves teamz, and our team is one hedz still think can be multi-cultural...
I agree, ain't nothin' wrong with sharing perspectives with respect...
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: PHM was NOT started by white masons! LOL… WHICH organization did you go to with a business plan/solution?? What "ties" did you find, because again, we aren't "tied" to anyone! And, if someone says, "we are working on it", that may just be true! I'm puzzled at the fact that you tearing down an organization who is going to speed up a solution! That's what gets me. While I don't "boast" of anything, I know what we do. Sure, we are still lacking in all the areas you mentioned, but that is not because our organizations are doing NO work, it's because our PARENTS are doing no work! See, you are naming all of the fruits, but none of the roots! I've worked in the public school. It's not these organizations' faults that parents don’t discipline their children, don't feed their children, don't support their children! It's not these organizations' faults that babies are having babies! Just because you don't see work, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You don't see electricity, but you use it!
I will revert back to what I've said before:
1)Give me some evidence of these "ties" and of where "we" aren't contributing to job, education, guidance, etc. We do this year 'round. Just because we don't publicize it for you to see doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
2) SOLUTIONS! If I come to your house right now and ask for money to pay my mortgage, will you give it to me?? That's what you are asking of these organizations. Sure, "we" could be doing more, but at the same time, you don't have to be in an organization to contribute, so what's the excuse now??
I am in full agreement on why there is not more unification and with your church statement. I've been saying that for years. But one thing I know for sure. You can't clean my house from the outside!
As for focusing on the youth, I'm in agreement again. We each have organizations that target them. As a matter of fact, our youth group has over 11,000 members, so again, while it's not perfect, it's progress. NOTHING happens immediately except destruction. I will even go further. You give me a solution on paper to help the youth, I'll make sure my chapters carry it out! We have things in motion. We can't fix all of the problems. No one can. However, as my mother always told me, you get more bees with honey than you do vinegar. We are doing everything that you say we aren't. It may not be on the scale that it could be, but is bigger than you think!
Send me evidence of our "ties". Members of these organizations who may be in "boule" is not evidence. That's old news. Send me stone…cold…facts! Other than that, lets see how we can take minds like yours and inspire others to do better through edification, not destruction.
For the record, Huey Newton was a member of Phi Beta Sigma, along with Kwame Nkrumah, Ben Azikiwe and a couple of others….
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: So enlighten me on how Prince Hall Masonz were founded and if not by/influenced by white masonz, why take on the same name and degreez?! (I hope you don't give me the same excuse fraternities used not using Afrikan names to ensure its existence). Unless you can show me different, I find it extremely hard to say there are no ties...
I'm not gonna dwell on this issues our people face for I know Parenting is where it starts, just as GWS knowz this, hence the creation of all these diversionz that have broken up not only the Afrikan family but families as a whole (although I'm focusing on ourz exclusively).
And from the sound of it, it seemz this is a winless battle. I beg to differ. If organizationz like yourz would actually do something bigger like using all your memberz to create Credit Unionz, Banks, Businesses that could employ, etc, maybe those who neglect their parental duties could be armed with self-respect and pride. See, the root of all this to me is the ability to provide, which we severely lack. Instead or even in addition to what you all do now, why not put an emphasis on job creation, endowment building, etc.? I mean, I presume you are part of what can be deemed the 'elite' of our people, why are they NOT talking about self-reliance? With all the lodges you have, why hasn't there been a chain of businesses that can potentially employ more of our people??
To wait for parents to wise up is not going to happen as long as this racist system continues to employ us the least and lowest! The only people who can save us is US! But we have groups of thousandz, tenz if not hundredz of thousandz of memberz to some of these organizationz, yet the conversation of wealth building evidently does not exist at or near the top of the list... This is where organizationz like yourz have continue to fail us... this is work that could be accomplished much quicker than any grassroots organization.
And yes, I know works bein' done, but regardless of whether I'm on the inside our out, after 100+ yearz as again, most of these groups have existed, I can't see how one can say they're making progress with a straight face — especially after what I just mentioned seemz to exist! So you want solutionz? I don't have them, but suggestionz, I do, this is one of them...
And I'm not asking for organizationz to "give" anything for nothing. It is they who "organized" for the betterment of our people, right? SO MAKE IT BETTER! Actually do something that's in alignment with 2000-now and not use ancient principles that have produced little (I'll give you that) to no progression for the very people they claim to be for the betterment of...
Oh, thanx for info about Huey, I knew that, I thought you were speaking of another organization... Still, I never heard him during his Panther dayz speak of sigma in the same breath. And if you did, enlighten me...
Regarding Kwame being a sigma, there were many historical iconz who joined fraternities and sororities, I don't hold that against them, but if they joined the Boule', now that's another story!
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: My Brother, Prince Hall started his own organization. There are no ties. For the record, what is wrong with sharing the same degrees with white masons? You use the same internet and currency they use! You drive the same vehicles, use the same gas, etc. Come on, now.
Now, I have to laugh again. We do have our own Credit Union that employs our own. We have had our own credit union for YEARS now! We also have endowments, scholarship funds, everything that you mention. Again, just because YOU don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Now, to be real, if it were THAT easy to start business that thrive in the first 5 years, EVERYONE would have them. While we are on the topic, I am a corporate officer of a national, soon to be international company that employs only us!
You continue to mention what we DON'T have, but you have yet to send me EVIDENCE of what you speak. You see, I'm on the inside, so I know what we are doing and what we have. Yes, I want us to have more, which is my personal drive, but again, these things take time. You constantly show us our failures, what are you doing? What are the organizations you spoke of doing? What are the individuals you mention doing? I'm from the hood. Money talks, BS hits the bricks!
You speak of our "principles" being ancient. Give me one of our principles that you know of. I'm not talking about what you can read in a book, I'm talking about our actual principles. I belong to a number of organizations that you belittle, so my expectations of your specific gripes are high!
Whether you believe it or not, some of us still beat the streets for our people. My question is, do you and your people? Together we can do some damage, separate, you already know…
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Prince Hall started PHM all by himself with no ties, connection, influence, desire from the white masonz?!!? Hmmm, ok... So I guess March 6, 1775, where Hall and 14 otherz were initiated into Lodge 459 never happened. No ties, you say... ok. Guess you can believe what you believe and I'll go by what a whole lot of masonz say. You show me how PHM is not tainted by any white organizationz....
And if that is so, why would PHM create a black-version of something white (oh, I forgot, you think he conjured it all up by himself, yet he adopted the same name and ritualz) and not something totally Afrikan — and yes, even in his day, it could've been done using non-blatant Afrikan names, but then again, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the first lodge called AFRICA Lodge #459?!!?
And, really, you really gonna use that sad analogy of vehicles, gas and money as equivalent to same ideologies, practices, and degreez with white masonz? Are you serious?! A statement like that makes me wonder why carry on this discussion. If you feel nothingz wrong with having those same practices as caucasianz who've practiced, profited and made sure their offspring benefit from the knowledge masonry beholdz (especially the Afrikan presence), then I need to reassess who I'm talking to... a member who obviously believes in the maintenance of masonz position.
And the laughs? You obviously didn't comprehend what I meant regarding Afrikan entrepreneurship... A credit union was posed as one of the many thingz on a regional/national/global scale that could assist in building wealth for our people. For clarity, I did not say they did not exist, I asked where are they (with your many yearz of existence and memberz, where are job opps?) on a massive scale? If you have credit unionz, that's great, can't knock that. But my point is, as I said before, where are the bigger and broader thoughts/instutionz/businesses? The one's that can stimulate and perpetuate wealth building that would enable us to one day have our own internet, currency, vehicles and gas as you mentioned! Master Historian, John Henrik Clarke once said we could employ Afrikan people the world-over by just taking care of ourselves.
I know thingz take time and nothing is built over night, but can you honestly tell me your organization would acknowledge and say they are working specifically for the global advancement of Afrikan people?!!? You know that would include nonmemberz, right? See, I'm not talkin' about masonz lookin' out for masonz, christianz lookin' out for christianz, or sigmas lookin' out for sigmaz, I'm talking Afrikan people looking out for each other regardless of affiliation because it sure does seem every other race does that. Why we haven't is beyond a quesiton, it's a conspiracy whether you want to see it as that or not!
And "the hood" card? C'mon B, was the 2 references really necessary? Why would I care if you hood or not? Rather than address and stick to the issue at hand, which you been fluctuating on — that PHMs were self-originated yet they share some of the same degreez as well as "some" lodges, as you say, are not acknowledged by scottish and/or york rite — you wanna ask what I'm doing? I didn't contact you, you contacted me. You're asking me personal questionz, mine are about your organization(s).
The premise of this discussion is that our black organizationz need to be reanalyzed, what is their origin? Is it Afrikan? Who are they affiliated with? Are they Afrikan? What kind of ritualz and practices do they conduct? Are they Afrikan? For me the discussion of Afrikan liberation is not a joke, nor is it something its affiliates should be openly accepted without some sort of background check as well as periodically reviewed. I say this because history has proven for every movement we had, there were just as many counter-ops that caused havoc and eventual destruction of our agenda for self-determination. You may feel our rooted enemy isn't whitefolk (who've cloned our own to work for them), and if that's so, this explainz why you are not in agreement with my stance.
As far as I'm concerned, I will continue to do the research of any organization that is Black in essence. And if I find they are in bed with the enemy, I will do my best to bring the topic to light. I don't go out looking for black organziationz to tear down, I just keep finding one's who don't mind who they're in between the sheets with!
The damage against us was done a long time ago, we just still haven't awakened from this millennium-plus long concussion! When we realize there's an ongoing fight to keep Afrikan people disunited, our unity will begin!
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: First of all, I did not say PH was not initiated by whites, I said the organization of PHFM was not STARTED by whites. Again, I am well-versed in Masonic Lore. We have NO ties to white organizations outside of sharing the same degrees. Yes, I will use the same analogy because you are using many of the very vehicles (technology) that "they" created to continue our enslavement! Remember, while we may disagree on many points, I believe we are cut from the same cloth. Do you use a cellphone? You must be familiar with the technologies that are being implanted inside of humans that are of the same technology. So yes, my analogy, though you may say is sad, is very valid.
As far as the credit union goes, I'm telling you that WE (my fraternity) own and operate one, not just for our use, but for any of us who are willing to invest our dollars back into our community. You see, as I stated before, you know VERY little about what we actually do. Your information is third-party; it's going to be watered down, even if you get it from some brothers who have "denounced" their membership. For them to even "denounce" shows they lack in understanding of what we are really about. That's another discussion as well...
Yes, I would say our organization is working for the advancement of African people, but whether you would like to accept it or not, all people have a common thread. You can't get around it. Regardless of the disdain you may have for others, we are all here to stay, so why not make life more peaceful. I am all for us having our own, but we cannot exist alone.
You say I'm fluctuating, but I keep going back to my same question: What is your solution and where is your proof that "we" are "sleeping the enemy". Historically, yes, the enemy has been the establishment, but today, we are our own worst enemy. Let me ask you this. Is it a conspiracy that 4 young brothers beat another young brother to death at a house party the other day in Atlanta? Is it a conspiracy that a woman caused 5 people to die in a car accident and fled the scene? Is it a conspiracy that a young athlete was gunned down after a football game? All of these things take place in OUR communities. Is the white man to blame for this? I know there are conspiracies that exist. But we give to much credit to "the devil", when the devil is a mentality that exists among us! Sure, it may have been initiated years ago by them, but as of now, that is no longer an excuse.
Our rituals have NOTHING to do with our plight! That stuff is not brainwashing. Our liberation is no joke to me either, but yes, I will laugh when brothers and sisters continue to complain without a plausible solution. That's where my "hood" reference comes in - where I'm from talk is cheap! Don't talk about it, be about it. I've been behind bars based on lies, so I know what a conspiracy is. Do your research, but at the same time, propose a solution. You talk about organizations that have been around for 100 years but have not advanced our cause. "Researchers" have been researching these organizations for just as long, but have never proposed a solution.
We agree there is a fight against us; we disagree on who the enemy really is. So, let's decide who the REAL enemy is and fight him together. Just as we have suffered from this for centuries, no solution will come from us tearing each other down. The research is good, but it's a mute point. Research is just that - research. Now it's time for answers to what we already know exists. If you really want to ask me, we need to start with the music and entertainment industry. They have more influence than any of us and their reach for resources probably extends beyond all of our organizations.
Let's fight together...
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: The Boule' wasn't initiated by them either, yet they too use ritualz and tenants of S&B. I don't see how PHMs any different... Again, just because black folk colored santa claus black don't make him black!
You are right, and I didnt project to know everything about an
organization I'm not a part of, but to say ex-memberz "lack the
understanding" is an opinion. My being an ex-member of a bglo does not
mean I don't know what that organization is about. Have you ever joined or
done something you later found to not be in agreement of? Does that mean,
because you disagree, that you are wrong in your thinking? The
denouncement of one's membership doesn't only mean they lacked
understanding. People change religionz, groups, pro teamz, their mindz all
the time. In most cases, it's called evolution...
The fact that PHM shares ritualz with york and/or scottish is proof enough
especially when one knowz the tenants they (york/scottish) operate on! And
I think you're reading me wrong. I'm not sayin', "death to YT!" unless in defense. What I am saying is we need to focus on us, exclusively. But it isn't a coincidence
when I see that whenever Afrikan people come together, there's alwayz some
white folk wanting to be down — and we include them mainly for fear of
bein' called reverse racists! Look around you... it's happening
The key thing we fail to realize is whitefolk (along with other
ethnicities) have a historical habit of not adopting but taking over
whatever we do! They've done it musically, through street dance, in
corporate america one can hear them try to talk Black (on ESPN, 'C'mon
Son!'), if it's not what we say, its the style/how we say it! They're
wearing saggin' pants, gold fronts, doo-ragz (and this is just the hood
aspect)! This is no different than them going into KMT and changing the
paintingz of faces to white!
At the same time of this "assimilation' we see the erasing of the Afrikan
origin/presence, which of course, is nothing new! And they attack on all
levelz! Look at Hiphop-based children showz on Nick Jr., there's one show
in particular (The Fresh Beat Band) that has 5 characterz who play different instruments and
the now token black guy playz the keyz while the DJ is a white boy who
tries his best to act like like us!
So do I have a chip on our shoulder toward other ethnicities who have
historically shown the only relation they'll have with us is one that
allowz them to be on top, dam right! Do I find it extremely difficult to
get our people to see this, yes it is! Mainly because we know not of our
foundation, and without that, we know not what to protect. We don't even
know our way of being is under attack!
So it does upset me when I see "black" organizationz who adopt tenants,
ritualz, principles, whatever you wanna call it, of our historical oppressor because it makes no sense
for us to do this when there's proven info we existed well before 1619AD
Jamestown, VA. Worse than us not knowing this, many care not to know! In
addition, to me, any organization that accepts non-Afrikan memberz (the
multicultural, melting pot - 'we are the world' believerz), only proves we
lack self-love, self-determination, knowledge of self, and self-respect!
So pardon me if I don't celebrate your belief that we could all live
together in peace — a mentality only possessed by us thanks in large parts
It's strange for you to say one cannot get around this common thread to an
Afrikan when the one's who SHOULD be hearing this are non-Afrikanz! Whilst
we remain 'peaceful' (I call it docile), everyone is continues to reek
havoc on us mentally, physically, and spiritually!
As stated, I'm in agreement among the enemies we have are our very
ownselves, but I also know they are but puppets. Who's the puppeteer? See,
I'm addressing the root of the problem, pawnz can follow no orderz if the
king no longer reignz! You speak of black-on-black crime, do you really
think the numberz would be what they are if GWS didn't exist?? Do you
really think prisonz would be filled with Afrikanz; unemployment would be
so high, fatherless children, substance and nutrition abuse, life
expectancy, spiritual astray, and ignorance of one's purpose for being here
would be what it is without GWS?!!? C'mon, B, you showing your naivity again. It
is no coincidence that the majority of these and other ailments affect the
majority of our people whereas in other ethnicities the percentage is profoundly
If your ritualz have nothing to do with your plight, what's the purpose
for having them?!!? Ritualz are s'posed to bind/cement to bond, so don't
make it as though they are insignificant, they are most definitely a
cornerstone to an organizationz existence! And trust, just as it takes
time to conduct the research, so does it to create solutionz. As well, if
you're clever enough, one can see that solutionz can be suggested within a
complaint. Of all the beefs I've said, to me, the obvious solution is to
do it ONLY with Afrikan people, values, ritualz, etc. Question is, are
hedz like you and your organizationz brave enough to be about it! (I mean,
I'm not at any of your organization meetingz, but when addressing the
issues we face, is GWS ever mentioned? And it's not just to point fingerz,
it's to identify the disturbance so as not to repeat it!)
So by now, you should know who I say is the REAL enemy, question is, do
you? And you may belittle research, and in the same breath, you'll agree
that information is power!
Where to start? I agree with the field of Entertainment... and I also add
3) Entertainment (you mentioned)
These are the 10 Areas of People Activity GWS operations on, introduced by
Drs. Neely Fuller, Jr. and Francess Cress-Welsing. Just as GWS has a daily
operation of these areas, simultaneously, so should we design cellz to
counter each area. There's your solution!
CARLTON'S RESPONSE: My Brother, All of what we are saying is opinion. Also, the fact that someone "evolves" is not an indication of a greater overstanding of a matter. What
are the "tenants" of the York/Scottish Rite, since you claim to know them?
Now, you are correct. There are always some whites who want to be down
with what we are doing. I am familiar with the show you are referring to
as well. However, I have to disagree with you that just because we allow
"others" to participate in what we do does not mean we have a lack of
anything. It could simply mean we have an abundance of something else.
That's debatable, depending on the individual.
I never said rituals were not significant. But we could beat that horse
It seems like we are finally reaching common ground. If it seemed as
though I thought you wanted to destroy the white race, I apologize. Now,
let's take a look at your points of solution. These are areas that I agree
are in desperate need of revolution. Now that we have points to work on,
we (people like you and I) need to put our heads together and
systematically frame solutions to target these points. You see, my point
is if we are to dismantle these organizations, what will they be replaced
with? As a whole, we lack resources. Our organizations employ our own, so
if we take those jobs away, where will our brothers and sisters work?
Again, we somewhat want the same thing. The question is how to we
eradicate the enemy while edifying our people? Let's come up with a
unified front to attack these issues that you mentioned. It will take
time, but I, for one, am willing to go the distance.
I appreciate your ear and your knowledge (BTW, knowledge is not power.
APPLIED knowledge is power). Can we get more of us to open the floor to
dialogue and start to fix what is broken?
M'BWEBE'S RESPONSE: Just a few points of clarity...
Of course I know one can evolve as well as dissolve (so to speak). I am speaking of those that are in search of the higher/deeper level.
Where we also stand on opposite sides of the field is what seemz to be your acceptance of outside races involved in supposedly organizationz/groups for Afrikan people. But I'm no surprised because, and correct me if I'm wrong, there are a few thingz PHM accepts in addition to its links to york and scottish, like religion (I'm assuming you're a christian, correct if wrong, but am I wrong in thinking PHM is a christian-based org?). True, the Afrikan experience have proven to be an exotic narcotic of sorts the world-over, because basically every ethnicity both luvz to hate us as well as subconsciously wants to be us! I need not hash some of the examples I already stated of Afrikan exploitation from other races. For me, there is no debate, this is fact!
Don't get it twisted, do I want to walk out and start slaying whitefolk, no. But do I want to annihilate GWS and any personz who seek to defend/preserve it? Yes! Trust, if you were to ask maintainerz of GWS, their answer would be the same! It's a no-brainer: whitefolk want to continue to enslave Afrikan people on mental, spiritual, and as close to physical as they can, other bottom feederz (asianz, arab, etc) on the socio-economic ladder don't mind engulfing what whitefolk toss aside. They have been successful at doin' this for so long because they've convinced Afrikan people we were born cursed (via religion) and erased the memory of our origin as well as to how we got to where we are today — we are the only group of people who not only collectively knowz very little of our halocaust, we care not to know of it! The so-called jew ain't havin' it!
If you haven't, you should look up books on how life was for our Ancestorz when coming to america when we were kidnapped. Books like Tingba Apidta's, The Hidden History of New York: A Guide for Black Folks is a must read!
Regarding solutionz, it is essential what we've been discussing before-hand occurz. It is vital for one to know of one's allegiances. See, I am working on unearthing, as well as creating/adding on to solutionz to Afrikan Liberation, FOR Afrikanz and BY Afrikanz. You, it seemz, wouldn't mind havin' John Whiteman join. If that is the case, I don't see how we could work together, I emphatically will not do it.
Now, you can mention the one's who may be like John Brown, and that's cool. I have no problem with any non-Afrikan who wants to work for our Liberation, but they will have to do it with THEIR organizationz. I think their focus should be more about informing their own people of the atrocities of their ancestorz is the most important point. Ask yourself, are there any white-based org'z who are against the atrocities of their ancestorz?? Do any of them publicly denounce the wealth they've inherited from their grandz and great-grandz and actually give back their stolen wealth to those it was taken from?? Yet we foolishly allow them to join our cause, which seemz to coincidentally be on pause...
I think the first thing that needz to be addressed before any collaborative work is done between Pan-Afrikanz and multicultural-Afrikanz is the mission and loyalty to it.
And as a far as knowledge? Tomatoe, tomato. To me, knowing is a significantly large part of the battle! Applied knowledge is the mastery of it...